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Ryan Coogler Reveals IMAX First for Black Filmmakers 🎥 | SWAY’S UNIVERSE
Apr 16, 2025
Ryan Coogler joins Sway In The Morning to reveal a historic milestone—his latest film "Sinners" becomes the first by a Black filmmaker to be shot and projected using IMAX 15/65mm film cameras! 🎥 In this exclusive interview, Ryan discusses the innovative technology behind the movie, the importance of bringing audiences back to the theater, and the cultural themes explored in "Sinners," including the Black church, Delta Blues, and entrepreneurship during the Jim Crow era. Michael B. Jordan’s dynamic portrayal of twin brothers Smoke and Stack is a highlight, and Ryan shares why he designed the roles specifically for him. The conversation also dives into music's influence, from the parallels between Delta Blues and gangster rap to the evolution of grunge and its ties to the blues. Stay tuned for insights into Ryan’s personal connection to the story, the creative process with producer Zenzi Coogler, and what makes this film a must-see. Don’t miss out—catch "Sinners" in select IMAX theaters for two weeks starting April 18th! Subscribe for more exclusive interviews and updates on Sway’s Universe, where culture and creativity take center stage. #ghettofilmschool #blackfilmmakersonyoutube #marvel #phasezero #film CHAPTERS: 00:00 - Ryan Coogler on the Importance of Seeing His New Film in IMAX 05:02 - Ryan Coogler on the Evolution of the Black Church Since the Jim Crow Era 11:12 - The Importance of Juke Joint Culture 14:58 - Juke Joint Culture and Parallels in the Bay Area 20:50 - The Bay Area’s Influence on Music 22:15 - The Global Impact of Hip-Hop Culture 25:18 - Why Michael B. Jordan Played Both Characters in “Without Remorse” 29:24 - Music vs Film on the Subconscious Mind 33:14 - Mike Muse Asks Ryan Coogler About Using Rock Music in the Film
View Video Transcript
0:00
hold up man let's clap it up right there that's the theme right there for the new film that's the official trailer for
0:05
Sinners have to be i already know it hey man check this out man i already saw the movie i saw it way before it came out
0:11
cuz I got You always bragging see I I'm I'm I'm prepared for your extra today cuz I know it's Oakland i know you going
0:18
to put extra extra bay on it i know you going to be extra ready and I'm not ready for it but I'm here for it come on
0:24
man you already know what it is i know Mike Muse is back in New York excited about this young man that we have here
0:31
Tracy G as well because of all the work he's done you know uh for Fruitville Station the Creed the Creeds movies the
0:38
Marvel's Black Panther series i mean this man has really really Judas and the
0:43
Black Messiah i mean this man has really put in and I'm not even naming all of his accolades because he's sitting right
0:50
in front of me and we've had him on the show before and that's not what he's about in my opinion about the awards the
0:57
nominations all those things he's about change and and forward progressive thinking and creating projects that make
1:04
us think and this newest movie Centers is definitely one that's going to make you think uh and it's a history lesson
1:11
in it as well uh when you talk about our country when you talk about the Jim Crow era and when you talk about culture and
1:18
I want to welcome him back to the show man this is my brother town business town business stand up Northern
1:25
California this is it this is the nucleus of the creative space all around the globe this is the creative mecca
1:32
when I talk about Oakland California and the Bay Area as in its entirety give it up for the one and only the icon i call
1:39
him a boat he's a Bay Area icon ryan Cougler is in the building
1:47
welld deserved though welld deserved intro that was crazy i thank you Su bro
1:52
you always been you always looked out for me bro i appreciate you having me again um it's always an honor to come talk to you bro it's usually It's
1:58
usually I got to fly 3,000 miles you know what I'm saying this this time I guess I guess just an hour flight to
2:04
come see you here in LA bro but it means the world man i appreciate you bro i appreciate you uh taking a look at the
2:10
film early and and spreading the word about it you know um you know for me I just wanted to make something that that
2:15
uh that that first and foremost above all things was was a great time at the theater you know what I'm saying like
2:20
it's it's a time when um we got a lot of distractions um it's a lot of money being spent for for content on our
2:26
phones and and and and you know very uh amazing things for you to watch at home and I think we since the pandemic folks
2:33
getting out of the habit of of of uh of going out on the weekends to the movies yeah you know so I wanted to make
2:38
something that can get people out in theaters man we shot it on on massive um IMAX cameras so they can put it on IMAX
2:44
screens matter of fact I brought you something you brought me something a little uh man he brought me a souvenir Tracy
2:50
the FOMO is strong what is it what is that what is that so that's So that's a So that's a special edition that's a
2:57
special edition film print that folks are going to get if they go see the movie weekend um beautiful at select
3:02
IMAX theaters um that that that shows exactly how the film is going to be projected on film those are three frames
3:08
from the movie you can open open it up don't mess it up either putting your big thumbrints on but why was it
3:16
important to shoot the movie in IMAX in in a 70 mm format yeah man it's the most immersive format uh that's ever been
3:22
made for for motion picture photography oh wow um and it's the first time that uh that that um you know a film uh uh
3:29
from a black filmmaker is going to be projected on on motion picture film uh first time on motion picture film
3:35
cameras uh on motion picture on IMAX 15 per 65mm film yes it's only in 10
3:41
locations you know um and and Jordan Jordan Peele broke a lot of ground when he uh when he shot Nope um you know on
3:48
that on that format um but but our film is our film is going to be put out with uh with film projections at at 10 select
3:54
theaters globally um and it's also going to be um you know at IMAX theaters uh
3:59
nationwide but it's only for two weeks okay you know so I wanted to put the word out uh for folks to if you want to
4:04
see it in the format that it was intended to be seen in you know um you know you got basically two weeks to see
4:10
it before before Thunderbolts the Marvel movie comes and gets those screens you know it it'll still be available in all
4:15
the other formats too you know after that but got two weeks to see it huh in IMAX i do yo congratulations another
4:23
first by a Oakland native man come on man oh my gosh this about to be Oakland man zizzy what up yeah yeah yeah zindy
4:31
here she she not as u not as talkative as I am man but um you know also born and raised in Oakland um she from from
4:38
East Oakland um but when I met her she was living in North Oakland um but but live you know lived in the town her
4:43
whole life man was an athlete and and now now a film producer she produced this this movie so actually actually her
4:48
first time officially producing something that I directed come on Zenzi i know you ain't going to get on the camera you ain't going to wave to him Z
4:55
they think I'm talking to nobody she She here bro she here she here man
5:01
and that's beautiful that's beautiful oh man this is amazing and uh man congratulations bro i'm super proud of
5:08
you man and I I want to say I'm honored as well i'm I'm not somebody who because
5:13
I've been around so long too humble to say that sometimes you and I connect on text message and you know man Ryan will
5:19
send me music and stuff and say "Yeah that's dope though." Ryan sends me music
5:25
like "Yo you need to be up on this check it then he'll disappear for two months you
5:30
know and I'm like "Oh okay i know he working and stuff." And even with this movie you know I I wrote you a review
5:35
that I had of the movie and I and I was a little nervous to write it to you cuz it's okay cuz it was um it's such a
5:43
multifaceted movie that that taps into so many layers of our culture and and it
5:48
it it by some I told you that some of the things I was watching made me a little uncomfortable right yeah and I
5:56
felt great about being uncomfortable a movie hadn't made me uncomfortable in a long time yeah and you tap into all of
6:03
these different themes one is the black church right you know um and I I wanted
6:09
to ask you about that the black church do your research um how do you feel like
6:15
the black church has evolved since the Jim Crow era and its importance to now
6:22
man that's such a great question bro um you know like like
6:27
uh I mean I came up I came up going to church you know I went to a Baptist church in uh in Oakland called the Good
6:35
Sheeperd Church that's where I was baptized that's where my parents got married it's right there on Martin Luther King right there in the heart of
6:40
North Oakland um and you know man like like I it wasn't like like what the church was in the in the 90s you know
6:47
what I'm saying when I was going to it it wasn't something that I had to that I had to research or think about it was a part of my life you know um uh the the
6:54
music man i I wrapped in church bro you know what I'm saying like my my my godfather uh uh my godfather Penne rest
7:01
in peace man um who passed away when I was young but he used to run he used to run the music there and he put the mic
7:07
in my hand man had me write a had me write a rap in church you feel me so so um you know I think church has come a
7:12
long way from from from where you know uh it was in the 1930s where our film
7:17
takes place um uh and we we really diving into the music you know what I'm saying like how we got to the church is
7:24
because I was trying to explore the Delta Blues and you can't look at the Delta Blues without looking at the church you know because so many of those
7:30
musicians you know like the 90s came out of the church you know your Glattus Knights your Whitney Houston your Luther
7:36
you you know you run the research on them the first time they grabbed the mic was generally at their local church in front of the congregation it was like
7:42
"Oh man that girl can sing." You know you know what I'm saying next thing you know how they got started yeah tha Franklin all of it yeah exactly boom out
7:48
of there and and and it was always a conflict between uh uh church music and secular music you know like the first
7:54
music to get called the devil's music was was the was the Delta Blues music you know um and and and there was also
8:01
that dichotomy of you know the same people who would be in that juke joint Saturday night you know they might go
8:08
home wash up sleep for a couple hours and check their ass right back to church in the morning you know you know what I
8:14
mean like like the strip club of the day exactly and and the pastor saying "Hey man pass that offering around and and
8:19
when they light they say "Yeah you had you had enough to buy that beer last night though didn't you?" You know you know what I mean like that that that so
8:24
so it was it was always it was always a conflict over these two institutions um
8:30
that that that basically had the same the same thing going on and people was dealing with so much that they were
8:36
looking for the same they were looking for a little temporary release yeah you know what I'm saying like like you know maybe it's spiritual on Sunday maybe
8:43
it's more carnal Saturday night you know what I'm saying but it is it is a necessary part of the human condition
8:48
you know um and in the blues music coming out of Delta it leaned into the shadow you know what I'm saying it
8:54
leaned into um like I said the carnal desires it leaned into the the to the
8:59
faults and the flaws you know um and and it was a time where you know where almost every vice was criminalized you
9:05
know what I'm saying it was a time when alcohol was illegal you know um but people were still drinking you know what I'm saying this is a time when um you
9:12
know like like a lot of things were were were frowned upon you know I was I was basically learning human behavior you
9:17
know what I'm saying um and what I also learned bro coming up in the 90s you know we was products of gangster rap you
9:23
know what I'm saying like like you know my my um my daddy the same age as all them dudes you feel me like you know
9:28
your two shorts you know what I'm saying your cubes you know um your sways
9:33
i ain't I ain't going to throw you in there i know you would the same age as my
9:39
daddy i mean I came up you know what I'm saying but I came up you know um uh you
9:45
know like like not even questioning that was my my my daddy's music was gangster rap you know what I'm saying i ride around with him listening to Let Me Ride
9:51
on on tape on tape cassette and I had to rewind it for him while he was driving you know what I'm saying and and and um
9:57
to to look back and realize that these Delta Bluesmen were the first gangster rappers you know what I'm saying they were the first people who who were
10:03
judged due to their music and had to and had to and were questioned by the elders you know what I'm saying but you know
10:09
like like for me you know it was exhilarating making this movie bro you know what I'm saying because it was it was like oh this is the this is the base
10:16
for for everything that we know now not just as black people but as you know global popular culture you know you know
10:22
what I'm saying everybody has followed in those guys footsteps like from the British invasion from the Beatles and
10:27
and you know the Rolling Stones naming themselves after they their music you know and you know obviously Elvis who
10:32
was right there that was his you know that's what he was playing you know what I mean if you grab Elvis and ask him they say "Hey he the king of rock and
10:38
roll XY and Z." They say "Man what you playing?" He'll tell you "I'm playing Blues music." You know you know what I mean like like and and because he was
10:44
white they called it they had to call it something different and and manipulate that so for me man like like the the the
10:50
studying of this music was was you know it was it was a study of what life is now you know from the church to to
10:57
popular culture to what we think is cool to fashion you know what I'm saying to what to what we drink how we drink it
11:02
you know what I mean like like you know all of it you know um it had that foundation there in that in that in that
11:07
part of in that part of the world that that folks often like to like to overlook they like to overlook it that's
11:13
why I say this and and and I'm hip to what you're saying right so when I was watching the movie I was I was like man
11:19
this man is he in his he he's on his dean he's on his square right you know you giving a lot of information even the
11:25
jukebox culture absolutely right and you could draw parallels because when you watch this movie you're going to see
11:31
some beautiful cinematography some beautiful scenes and a beautiful portrayal of two Smoke and Stack played
11:38
by Michael B jordan um two two black people who served in the military and
11:44
like many at that time there was a a a wave of black entrepreneurship right absolutely that was um below board so to
11:51
speak so juke boxes were being opened up and that's how people made money when they sailed sold the moonshine or
11:57
whatever vendors they had in the at the jukebox and it was our thing in the
12:02
jukebox you know culture was a like a rest haven yes right it was a safe place
12:08
for us to go to where we could be our full human shelves yeah right you know yeah yeah go ahead no no it was it was a
12:15
it was a place of um it was a place where uh you got to keep in mind man these people were were sharecroppers mhm
12:21
which was which was just which was just a a evolution of enslavement you know what I mean like it was it was the
12:27
closest thing that to to enslavement that that that could be done you know um
12:32
and and you talking about a place that was isolated you know um from federal
12:37
oversight and and um you talking about a place of like I've seen these fields bro
12:43
like I've seen Clarksdale Mississippi and and the and the wealth that's in the land that's being denied to everybody
12:51
but a few you know what I'm saying even to this day you know and um so they and they working seven days a week bro
12:57
backing conditions um some of these plantations were so were so massive and powerful that they printed their own
13:03
currency you know what I'm saying like like like they were they were they were big enough to have to print their own
13:08
like they were like nation states you know what I'm saying and um and these people are living in the same they're
13:14
living in the same quarters that they that their grandparents lived in you know you know what I'm saying and and
13:20
paying rent you know on this and getting paid sometimes in script or sometimes in actual physical currency you know um
13:27
that's only able to be used on that you know on that plantation and and the juke joint was a place man where for for for
13:35
a few hours they could put on their they finest clothes yeah you know what I'm saying can go in there and not have to worry about who who was watching them
13:41
and who was looking at them um you know and they can they can hear the best musicians on earth
13:47
playing just right there for them you know what I'm saying and get a little bit piece of respit and that culture
13:52
that culture man that that became nightclub culture that became nightclub you know what I mean like that became
13:57
parallel right yeah like like you know like like that that's what that's when you I mean we going to you know how much music is about going to the club you
14:03
know what I'm saying like how much music is about you know living for the weekend
14:08
you know you know what I mean how much is about that and and and that's where and that's where it started you know so
14:13
for me it was about and it was it was also about you know um us thinking about
14:19
our our our greatgrandparents bro and like the fact that they were that they were like us stuck in that situation in
14:25
that time you know what I'm saying yeah um you know uh my my great great-grandfather might have been a
14:30
filmmaker if he could have could have been or yours might have been a you know what I'm saying a internationally known
14:37
radio DJ you know you know you know what I'm saying but but because of circumstance man he in the field you
14:42
know what I'm saying so he was probably the OG who man that dude can talk man he know he know a lot about everything but but they but they in the field with it
14:48
they don't have what you know what I'm saying they don't have the the access that that that we have cuz they had the luck of being born when they was boring
14:54
you know so for me the movie was was was very much about that it was very Can you can you talk about um jukebox culture
15:01
and and run some parallels in the bay like you know we used to party crosswinds and you know what was some of
15:08
the partying that you did when you was coming up man bro so I I was in a I was in a I was in a cold era bro where it
15:15
was it was something called Black Fridays and black Saturdays um that's why you was there yeah man
15:20
come on i mean it was I mean I mean so it was I was when I was in high school it's keep it honest with you bro it it's
15:27
it was a gift and a curse cuz it's why I don't go out now okay cuz cuz cuz I never experienced parties I was that was
15:33
as live as those but also bro these parties was incredibly dangerous man like they were they was unregulated and
15:39
and we used to call a number um you know like like on like like on Friday night like after about 3:00 you'll call this
15:45
number and the dude would will leave a voicemail and he'll give you directions on where the party was at uhhuh because
15:50
it was too dangerous for everybody to know for the whole week because you know it was so many you know this this this
15:56
2002 2003 bro it's so many beefs bro like like every neighborhood is is um
16:03
you know every neighborhood is turning against each other you know you know what I'm saying so so everybody you know everybody will go to these parties bro
16:09
because it'll be so many girls there bro like you knew that you knew it was going to be that but you also knew you know
16:14
people was going to end up shooting at each other before the night was over you know you still you still gambled though you still You
16:20
still I I was I was still I I was I was still there man and I'm still here to talk about it bro but I had some close
16:27
calls um in there man and um and and all all of that all of that [ __ ] bro like
16:34
you know it was certain and keep it honest with you bro it was certain songs bro that I still hear to this day and
16:39
they take me they take me bro they take me right back to being in them sweaty rooms bro like you know you know for for
16:46
example bro it was um cuz I was bro that was that was that was right that was right before the crunk the crunk uh
16:52
sound broke out of Atlanta but cuz two short was living in in Atlanta at the time he was making music with them that
17:00
was that was getting ported back so they got a song called what you going to do uhhuh um that was that was that was
17:05
short in Lil Johnny and east boys bro dig that up DB let's take them back don't play that in the bay
17:15
It it was a whole bro it was a whole group of songs bro that was that were Atlanta songs that became our songs like
17:22
in the bay cuz because of that cuz of that unknown connection you feel me another one was was uh big cat lair
17:29
Gucci the Gucci song the Gucci song bro you put that on bro you put that on in the bay bro party was over that's
17:35
interesting you talk about that we got Ryan Cougler here man we talking about the movie Sinners that's out in theaters
17:41
April 18th April 18th we need everybody to bum rush to theaters April 18th
17:47
that's that's interesting you bring that up because we was just having a a conversation about the influence that
17:52
the Bay had on Kunk Music and Too Short and E40 you know teaming up with Lil
17:58
John i mean they was great ambassadors bro like like cuz you know the Bay had that hustle yeah yeah you know so so so
18:04
what I what I learned bro coming up because because our artists had such an entrepreneurial spirit and they was kind
18:11
of denied the uh they were kind of denied the LA Airwaves and the and the New York Airwaves true so they so they
18:17
toured so when I was playing football bro I would meet people um from different parts of the of the the uh
18:23
obviously we knew we knew we knew 40 would go to would go do baller blocking with Cash Money and and you know he was
18:29
tacking you'll see 40 in in Louisiana in BG video or something you know what I'm saying um and and and and uh P being
18:37
from you know he was he was both from he was both from New Orleans and Richmond you know you know what I'm saying he was
18:43
making masterp Yeah p was making West Coast Bad Boys albums and it right around the time I moved from Oakland to
18:48
Richmond people would still talk about P like he was there you know what I'm saying and going to high school with Silk and and see Murder and knock
18:54
somebody out or something you know what I mean like like you'll hear you'll hear the you'll hear you'll hear the the the you know and Big Ed the assassin and and
19:02
they bought a bunch of uh they bought a bunch of warm-up suits for Elsto uh basketball team so you seen the remnants
19:08
of of of No Limit in in the rich you know um to know it was real but but but
19:14
it was a tie between New Orleans and and Richmond you know and it was a tie between Oakland and Atlanta yeah but
19:21
then I found out bro like growing up I met a cat from Kansas City this right
19:26
around the time when when uh right right before Mac Dre was murdered rest in peace but I met a cat from Kansas City
19:31
who who bro all he listen to is b music like and I and I we in the locker room playing music and he like "Bro these
19:38
dudes would come to they would come see us." You know what I'm saying like like the cashing 40 and short so I'm like
19:44
"Damn we got a Kansas City outpost we had a Portland outpost in Seattle." And then I found out bro um when when I got
19:51
when I got close with Maverick Carter and uh and and you know we made we made Space Jam too with LeBron bro i found
19:57
out Akan like cuz Auccino would make a bunch of you know what I'm saying i found out Akan was a big bay outpost
20:04
like they listening to to to to Bay Area rap you know what I'm saying um you know
20:09
you know Kendrick coming up i found out in Compton it was it it was it was heavy you know what I'm saying quick had that song Oakland Just Like Compton it's
20:16
like so so I I would learn like like because our because our artist was were
20:21
so um entrepreneurial bro you know you know what I'm saying like like the fact
20:26
that we wasn't on the radio and it wasn't on Rap City and all of that bro because them dudes beat their feet you
20:32
know we was still out there you know what I mean and and through Hammer and you know you know with his run and and Pac with his run you know um when you
20:40
when you bring the bay up it it it poke up the right ears you know you know what I'm saying and our and our sound I
20:46
learned that was it was a global sound you know what I'm saying which was which was just which was just awesome man we going too deep now bro that was a good
20:53
lesson to learn because imagine Ryan me being on the East Coast i knew none of this yeah we were so centralized yeah
21:00
trace right we didn't we didn't listen to it that we didn't the radio to your point the DJs just didn't play it but y
21:08
that's not y'all fault man like y'all center y'all center of the hip-hop universe for like for like what two
21:13
three decades yeah right so So I think it I think it made y'all um not lazy you
21:18
know what I'm saying but complacent you know you know what I'm saying and and and it's it was crazy to see cuz like
21:24
cuz like Atlanta was a center like the South was a center of black music for
21:30
centuries yeah you know you know what I'm saying so New York had it for New York had it for a little while but it
21:35
was a matter of time before they you know before it was before it was back down there man you know what I'm saying
21:41
but but but a lot of times you know um we don't look at uh uh African-American
21:48
culture as a you know as a as a people you know you know what I'm saying like it's is very you know we was taught to
21:54
be very regional and have a regional mindset but it's really this it's really a we really a a massive people
22:00
absolutely i mean with different with different you know um you know with different flavors and but it's really
22:06
it's really the same thing um and and that that that is what I that was that is what I realized as I got older and I
22:12
you know and I traveled you know what I'm saying bro I'll never forget bro um my first time out of the country at the
22:18
Can Film Festival i'm at the Can Film Festival man and um one of my one of my
22:23
one of my uh classmates Miriam Bakabza uh who was French linked me up with our
22:29
cousins you know what I'm saying these is these is these is white French people you know um I'm staying on his couch uh
22:36
you know so I can go to the film festival and everything it's 2009 bro they bro he banging French rap like
22:44
banging it you know what I'm saying and I can and I can hear it's this dude named Raf raf yeah okay i know he sound
22:50
exactly like Pac like like like like exactly like Pac he's he's he's rapping like Pac in French and you can hear the
22:57
influence man what i'm from I'm from I'm from the Bay Area i hear I hear I sniff out Pac you know what I'm
23:03
saying even in French I still believe bro no I still believe like we we were
23:10
part of the reason why why DMX and and Jaw was so big cuz we missed Pock and we was like "Oh man they kind of look like
23:15
him." You know what I'm saying that energy he baldhead with the hat with with the shirt off you know what I'm
23:20
saying like like you know um so so I'm so I'm listening to this bro i'm like "Man who is this?" I'm like "Man
23:27
translate this for me what is he saying you feel me it was dope though he He got a song called K sauce for life uhhuh
23:33
he's saying for life in English like you know what I'm saying he you know and I'm I'm listening i'm like man I'm like god
23:39
damn French rap you know what I'm saying he like hell yeah that's right ruff I
23:44
went in 2006 I went over uh I took MTV to Paris and I wanted to do a deep dive
23:51
on Parisian hip hop rough took me to his neighborhood where he grew up yeah and
23:57
when I tell you homie they call the suburbs yeah they call it the suburbs it blew my mind
24:03
but it's not man so So in Europe so in Europe
24:10
um when I when I touched down out there bro cuz I still had I still had you know I still had my my dreads was probably
24:16
down on my elbows then and I'm walking around and people was asking me if I was
24:21
from the suburbs you know what I'm saying they say "Hey what you what you doing you from the suburbs?" I was in the city and I'm like man what are they
24:27
talking about you know I could tell it's a racial interaction happening why are they saying the suburbs which is the
24:33
opposite of the suburbs here here so in so in in uh Europe it's actually
24:39
reversed like cuz they they they push um you know impoverished people uh and and
24:45
and you know first generation immigrants and and they push them out of the city they don't want them in the city you
24:51
know they make them commute you know what I'm saying and to work you know um to be domestic workers and and do the
24:57
and do the other blue collar jobs and they make them commute back way out so the suburbs there is what we would call
25:02
a project here you know wow it was it was rough to say the least and it was an artist named Boua at that time who was
25:09
extremely huge man this is what I love about what you do right you walk away and you feel educated and I I I I thirst
25:17
for knowledge you know and so I want to commend you uh for how you tell your stories um not not just on film but how
25:23
you tell your stories verbally when people see this film man one of the first things that blew my mind was the
25:31
um the technology that was used because uh Michael B jordan plays twins right um and I I thought it
25:41
would take me a second to get used to him playing the brothers but I told you
25:47
on a on a text it just took me one scene and I forgot he was the same person playing two different people but you
25:53
could have easily got another person to play Smoke or Stack right why Why did you do it this way yeah it's funny man
26:00
um I always wrote them for a mic you know always and they were always
26:05
identical twins you know um my my my uh I have identical twin aunts um my mom's
26:12
older sisters my auntie Kurlin and my auntie and my auntie Merlin um my auntie Kurlin is my godmother and they've been
26:19
they are completely identical but us as a family we can tell them apart as soon as we see them you know um just about
26:24
how they hold their face and they got very different demeanors you know what I'm you know what I'm saying uh so so
26:31
you know like like for me I I um you know I always I always wanted to to make
26:37
this movie very personal um I wanted to explore uh dichotomy you know um like
26:44
for instance the dichotomy between the church and the blues you know um I thought it'd be great to to to explore
26:49
that the the other thing to it is is like you know we we have
26:54
African-American people african people got a very interesting relationship with the concept and in of of twins you know
27:00
um there are there are twin deities in the Euroba religion um you know uh and
27:06
and West Africans overindex in the birth of fraternal twins you know um however
27:12
identical twins is something that science still can't explain you know they they still they still don't they still don't know why the fertilized egg
27:19
the fertilized egg decides to split and replicate you know um it's not something that's handed down genetically um and
27:26
and and what I also found like it's my travels playing ball and you know every
27:31
it's almost like every neighborhood got a set of twins in it that's like and they usually like like they like hood twins you know you know what I'm saying
27:37
like like we like I knew several sets in the Bay it's um it's some very well-known ones from Berkeley like that
27:43
that they coach now and and um but you could go to Berkeley and ask anybody on the corner hey when the last time you seen the Twins they'll be like "Oh they
27:49
I just seen one of them over here and they and over there." Um and and usually they are called twin because you can't
27:55
tell them apart you know um and that's found it way into into our slang today you know you know what I'm saying like
28:01
kids calling each other twin you know it's it's from that um and and I grew up
28:06
man and and you think about that that Warren G song bro like like um it's it's kind of easy when you listen to the Jub
28:14
his last line in that in that song i still know how to make them ends you
28:19
don't believe me go ask the twins you know he talking about a group of twins from from Long Beach you know what I'm
28:25
saying that that certified catch like man he you check if you checking my rep man check in with them you know you know
28:31
what I'm saying and and that that concept for me was was something I was really interested and I wanted to you
28:37
know I wanted to explore that dynamic um so when we when we you know when Mike said yes to it you know we we got a lot
28:44
of technology together incredible visual effects department um run by Michael Rolla is my visual effects supervisor
28:49
and James Alexander my visual effects producer we developed a lot of really really cool technology it's basically
28:55
like old school um um split screen technology but but but you know with with much more advanced camera camera
29:01
systems and and effects that we have today in 2025 um but but it but it all
29:06
starts and ends with Mike's performance bro yeah he killed all his for Michael B man he yo I know he said it's probably
29:13
the most fun he's made in a movie right the most fun he's had in a movie and this is a horror flick you know what I
29:19
mean i was like we had a ball bro wow man i'm gonna let Tracy and Mike Muse
29:24
over in New York uh Tracy you want to jump in oh my gosh do I mr freaking Cougler bro you are extraordinary
29:33
storyteller historian like Sway said behind the camera directing but then
29:38
also being on air with us i'm just I'm very very grateful for your presence and
29:43
Mike and I before you walked into the room we were both just kind of debriefing and talk giving each other um
29:49
our different synopsies of the film because we loved it and especially us
29:55
getting into these conversations around music and I often think about how music
30:00
is a tool for seduction we've heard it in multiple areas of history you know when you think about uh Greek mythology
30:07
and how the sirens would lure the sailors right with their voices we think
30:12
about how Lucifer was the most talented musician in heaven before his fall from grace you know like even in um Hinduism
30:20
there's a a goddess I can't recall her name but she's the goddess of music and wisdom and she quite literally and
30:26
figuratively brings harmony to the world and we as humans presently like we
30:32
experience this full spectrum of moods that music can create and enhance right
30:40
for better or for worse and because you're such a music lover appreciator connoisseur as well as being a filmmaker
30:47
I just need to know your take ryan Cougler what do you think has more
30:52
influence on our subconscious music or film
30:58
on our subconscious
31:07
i would say I would say probably film yeah i would say probably film on the
31:12
subconscious music on the conscious can you share more on why
31:22
um I think uh I think it's I think it's the I think it's the combination of all of the
31:28
mediums you know what I'm saying like music unless you're seeing somebody perform live music is just hitting one
31:34
sense it's just hitting it's just hitting your ears your hearing you know what I'm saying um and and film is is um
31:42
is is is hitting two very powerful senses um you know your your your your
31:48
hearing and your and your sight um and I think that because it's giving you more
31:54
it's more likely to overpower you and you're going to miss something that then your subconscious will work to try to
31:59
break down and unpack if that makes sense i I think I think the the power of music is that it's so immediate you know
32:07
what I mean um and that's why people use it like in such a utilitarian style you know what I'm saying like people would
32:13
use music to pump themselves up for a game or or use music to get themselves in a romantic mood you know or use or
32:19
use music to to to um to to get yourself Yeah get yourself in an artistic mode or
32:26
get yourself into an intellectual mode it's immediate you know what I'm saying like I put on fast car right now you
32:31
know if some of these people in here are going to start crying immediately you know you know what I'm saying um you know uh if I put on you know 15 boom
32:39
don't do it to me hey don't do it to me man right cry Ryan don't do it to me man but um but
32:46
but but you know like like like a movie you know you might I've I've seen movies man and and and in and thought coming
32:53
out of the theater man I don't know if I like that one and I go home and I'll dream about it you know you know what I'm saying and I wake up the next day
32:59
and I'm thinking about it you know and I'll sleep on it wake up the next morning and say man I actually like that
33:05
that's my subconscious breaking it you know what I'm saying breaking it down so I I would say I would say movies for the
33:10
subconscious maybe all right man great great question great answer mike Muse hey Ryan um good to see you my brother
33:17
um man likewise bro as I said before I know you made a lot of great films right
33:22
but I'm going to go on record again and say this film is my favorite film of yours um I think because of what it is
33:28
and the details that it is I think it shows the peakness of your directorial ability um so I just wanted to salute
33:35
and your writing ability i just wanted to salute you for making this film it is my personal favorite with that being
33:40
said Mike yeah with that being said I'm curious about and kind of going along what Tracy G was talking about in terms
33:46
of film i mean excuse me in terms of music I love the anthropology that you gave us about blues and and the evolution of it i'm just curious about
33:53
and and not to give any spoilers away but there was a moment when you used rock music and I'm very curious of
34:01
directorial choice of the use of rock uh for that particular scene and what you were trying to communicate it's a great
34:08
question bro um so so so in 20 I'm going be real quick with it too cuz I I know we
34:14
probably running we probably running running running a long time but but in 2021 November
34:20
2021 I was listening to a lot of Young Dolph i was in um I was in uh Byron Georgia
34:28
saw my first cotton farm there um and I was working on Panther on Black Panther
34:34
with kind of fab and and I got the news that that Dolph had been murdered um and I and I was kind of venting to my my
34:41
producer Nate Moore who's also a black man but from a different culture he's from Culage California okay um and uh
34:49
you know um grew up listening to rock music and and not not a rap guy you know uh I remember I had to explain to him
34:55
who some of the artist was on that first Black Panther soundtrack he didn't know he didn't know he didn't know some of them yeah yeah um he knew Kendrick but
35:02
but a few few of them he was like "Man who is this?" I'm like "Had to run him down." Um because you know it's not his
35:08
that's not his you know it's not it's not the music he was raised with right and I was venting to him man because I've been through you know swipe bro you
35:14
know more than me bro but I've been through uh the the the feeling of um
35:19
listening to somebody loving loving what they talking about and them talking about their lives and what they trying to escape and having them be murdered
35:27
so many times broing from the bay with serum and and Pac and Jacka you know what I'm saying m Dre obviously you know
35:33
what I'm saying johnny Cash you know um and a lot of Cash who I grew up with who who who maybe I never heard of that that
35:39
that rapped and lost lost their life you know you know what I mean um and uh and
35:45
I was kind of sick of it bro you know what I'm saying i just went through it with Nick right after we brought out the first Black Panther you know what I'm saying and and with Dolph I said man I
35:51
said "Man what music is like this man where somebody bears their soul and and and all of their struggles and and and
35:58
gains financial success and you think they made it out and then boom it still happens to him." And he said "Well my
36:04
music's like that." I said "Man what music is that?" He said "Grunge music." I said I said I said "Huh?" And he said
36:10
"Yeah man." Like um he's like "We lose those artists every day." He said "Man Chris Cornell just just just just passed
36:16
away in a hotel room the other day he's 50 he's in his 50s you know just the this leader Sound Garden you know what
36:23
I'm saying?" And and I and I and when he said that bro it hit me differently and I and I was so so now coming up coming up
36:30
listening to 106 KO right mhm that was the only rock rock song that broke the 7:00 drop if you remember smells like
36:36
Team Spirit it was on the 7:00 drop 7:00
36:42
bro i'm really from I'm really from there look um and and and um you know that was
36:51
a big deal so so so so Grunge is really my first introduction to you know to rock to to rock through that song you
36:57
know what I'm saying and and so I I took a break from from rap for a little bit and went back to to grunge music i said
37:02
"I'm going to do a deep dive on this grunge." Oh wow you know um and and as soon as I turned it on man I said "Man
37:08
this remind me of the blues I used to listen to with my uncle my uncle James rest in peace." You know they singing
37:14
about they singing about their life I recognize the guitar riffs you know i recognize some of the vocal things they doing i'm hearing harmonas in it and
37:19
[ __ ] you know what I'm saying so I son I did a study on it like I like you know Google it at home you know what I'm
37:25
saying after you know and it's and it's and it's and music colleges will tell you legitimately that grunge music is is
37:32
is is white people from Seattle singing blues like that's that's what it is you know you know you know what I'm saying
37:39
so so you know my composer Lou Eurson you know is a guitarist by trade before
37:44
he became a a a film composer and he's from Lynching Sweden you know what I'm
37:50
saying like like you know thousands of miles from from the Mississippi Delta but but because it was so racist you
37:56
know you know at the time when Holland Wolf and those guys were were getting took on tour you know by by the by the
38:02
the the British bands they took them to Europe first you know what I'm saying and and and my composer's father who's
38:08
in his 70s now saw those guys when he was a teenager and said "I want to be like that." You know wow made himself a
38:15
blues guitarist had a son and trained his son from 5 years old how to how to play how to play how to play blues music
38:22
now look Louis Vig when he was a kid was learning blues music but it wasn't for him it was his daddy's music you know
38:28
you know what I'm saying then he heard Metallica and he said "Oh yeah this for me." You know and and started and
38:35
started learning you know fell in love with Metallica so me and Louis meet up in like 2008 me from Oakland you know
38:42
what I'm saying him from him from Sweden you know what I mean and we we kicking it you feel me exchanging music i'm playing him three times crazy he playing
38:50
me Metallica and and and and Adam Tinster who a Swedish rapper you know what I'm saying um you know that that
38:56
was how our friendship started but but but for me it only made sense for the movie to be what it was about for for
39:02
that for that for that for when it when it goes when when a movie goes where it goes you know what I'm saying for you to
39:08
for you to hear for you to hear the blues music in that style too you know you know what I'm saying that's amazing
39:13
man great question Mike and thank you ryan Cougler is here man and I know you got to go i'll be remiss i always like
39:19
to take at least one caller bro i got to let a caller get in man we got Jerry from Florida quick question go for it
39:25
what is it what's up Jerry hi how you doing guys in the morning
39:30
cruise it's my first time caller first time caller
39:36
thank you guys so much welcome to the cipher and I really appreciate it all right go for it what's your question u
39:43
Mr cougler um appreciate your work um I'm an Haitian and I'd like to know and
39:49
I' I'd like to I'm curious about why would you put
39:55
um Tala's son's name Tusen and where he was born in Caphhatian in Haiti i want
40:01
I'd like you to debunk this mystery for us for the Haitian community
40:07
wow wow man um I don't think it's I don't think it's really a mystery for y'all bro like I
40:13
think y'all know you know like like you you you you guys um y'all history of of
40:20
being of being the first uh community that of enslaved Africans to to win a
40:26
war against their oppressor um and and and and what happened was what was done to y'all since then you
40:34
know um the the the the massive injustices that were done uh in response to that and how much that affected you
40:41
know where we from if you're looking at the Louisiana purchase and all of that like it it it only made sense um for the
40:48
character of Nikia to go there in our in our in our fictional world and um and it
40:53
only made sense for her to give for her to give uh you know her her her son who who um was a descendant of this great
41:01
leader for her to give him that Haitian name jerry great question man sappa say
41:07
man we appreciate you you're super citizen brother i swear in the morning thank you guys absolutely man how how
41:14
does that work i know with um Avengers Doomsday the Russell brothers are doing that and I know they going to have a lot
41:19
of watians on there do they do they do will they consult you for that or I mean
41:24
with the story lines or Yeah bro like like like it it'll be um it'll be
41:30
the Russo brothers yeah yeah yeah yeah join Anthony they good dudes man and I and I and they tap in you know like um I
41:36
was able to I was able to consult on uh on Tala in in um in in Civil in Civil
41:42
War um and uh and I was able to consult on Wakanda in in um in Infinity War as
41:50
well mhm um you know so so yeah they you really really good dudes man really respectful but they they you know they
41:56
they got they got their own thing going and it's been incredibly successful and I'm always honored when they when they um you know when they when they reach
42:02
out okay hey listen here remember they came through here yeah yeah the Brussel brothers like to hang out with us man
42:07
yeah yeah they they out of Cleveland man good dudes good dudes man um yo I'm super proud of you brother and and I'm
42:14
glad we always tap in man whenever you doing anything I don't care big or small and everywhere in between we are here
42:21
for you this is your platform man you set the 7:00 drop and that just took you
42:26
yeah cuz you know you got If you know you know right yeah we we built Kel in
42:31
the '9s so when you I remember when y'all shut the y'all shut the station down after P got got murdered and it was
42:37
big too i shut the station down it was a heartbeat for like for like like a day or something yeah for 24 hours we did
42:42
that man and then we ran the Pac interview we did no I just want to commend you Ryan for
42:48
working with your wife as well i think that that's beautiful um I need her i need her i It ain't altruistic
42:56
it's here too i I just think it it it is it's really beautiful and And for you to say that like I need her i think No no
43:03
mike Mike Muse he said this my he said it's my best work man it's the one she she she was she had her hand in full
43:09
time bro like I don't think that's a coincidence man she she the smartest person I know um and she knows me she
43:16
knows me better than I know myself at this point after after um you know after
43:21
after over 20 years of rocking with each other so so I mean I couldn't do any of this i couldn't do any of this without
43:26
her no I think it's just beautiful we talk about marriage i mean I'm married and and uh we speak about that a lot and
43:32
the importance of that and I think it takes a special God-given relationship to be able to not just live with a your
43:38
soul partner and your life partner but to be able to work together as well and do beautiful work and feed the community
43:44
so salute to you both seriously it's it's beautiful to see and hear that's all I wanted to add well hey Zindi you
43:51
might be on camera i'm sorry oh Su leave people alone back up she said to I gave my I gave sis
43:59
my word i ain't backing up you blocking the camera Heather you're blocking the lens at She asked me first she was like
44:04
"If I could be on camera." I was like "No." She said "Good." East Oakland what part of East Oakland she out of Fruitville bro fruitville yo I went to
44:11
Manzanita i used to I used to hang out at Sandborn Park over there underneath
44:17
uh um Foothill uh and then I I used to practice at Fruitville what's that
44:23
fruitville Junior High when I played for the Oakland Dynamites you play You play for Dynamite play for the Dynamite i play for the Cougars yeah we used to run
44:29
through No berkeley Cougler yeah man yo love it you
44:35
supposed to say you ran through always see somebody here finally to debunk your sports stories i can't tell you what was
44:42
happening then like like we used to we used to have battles with the Dams my daddy played for the Dunham Mike oh yeah
44:47
so yeah the purple the purple they turned to the Oakland Warriors and Giannis and them uhhuh uh Brandon
44:53
Sanders yeah no actually Brandon Sanders played for the Saints actually
44:58
yeah you had Oh Murf murf play for me me to bring up the Crusaders yeah man
45:06
crusaders it's all Pop Warner League football but but shout out to my homie Cyrus like Crusaders legend okay yeah
45:14
but I play I play with them big dogs bro with them Cougars bro quinton Gander Tres George mhm uh Ramon
45:22
the Cherries the Cherries yeah yeah that was after me man yeah after we built the
45:28
league you guys all right hey Ryan we love you brother we want you to go see this movie april
45:35
18th man go see it it's incredible haley Stein Steinfield did her thing um Jack
45:40
Oonnell did his thing michael B jordan of course wonderfully shot beautifully done and I want cinematography from the
45:47
Bay too for real wow she's from Danville from Danville wow everybody everybody
45:54
around you is Bayorn Heather that's why I say we are the center of the universe for creative creativity we're reminded
46:00
every day ryan I apologize for y'all no man you ain't got to stand up thump your chest on ryan Cougler man give it up for
46:07
Ryan Cougler april 18th y'all in 10 select theaters to get that that beautiful visual as well correct on IMAX
46:13
go see it in IMAX but go see it just go see it you know what I mean however however you can do it go see it man we going to support it
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